Episode 143 examines what enables certain guerrilla and insurgent forces to develop genuine military effectiveness on the battlefield.

Our guests discuss why ideological cohesion, social ties, and material resources alone are insufficient for insurgents to successfully implement guerrilla strategies. Drawing on historical examples and a detailed analysis of the Taliban’s evolution in Afghanistan, they argue that success depends on the professionalization of the force—particularly the recruitment, training, and empowerment of skilled small-unit combat leaders who enable effective planning, realistic training, adaptation, and task-oriented cohesion. The conversation explores broader implications for understanding insurgencies, counterinsurgency challenges, and security force assistance programs.

General (Ret.) Stan McChrystal is a retired U.S. Army four-star general, former commander of Joint Special Operations Command and International Security Assistance Force in Afghanistan, founder of the McChrystal Group, and author of multiple books on leadership and irregular warfare.

Dr. Alec Worsnop is an Assistant Professor at the University of Maryland’s School of Public Policy and a Non-Resident Fellow at the Modern War Institute. His research focuses on insurgent military effectiveness, and this episode is based on his recent book titled Rebels in the Field: Cadres and the Development of Insurgent Military Power published by Oxford University Press.

Kyle Atwell and Alisa Laufer are the hosts for episode 143. Please reach out to them with any questions about the episode or IWI.

The Irregular Warfare Podcast is a production of the Irregular Warfare Initiative (IWI). We are a team of volunteers dedicated to bridging the gap between scholars and practitioners in the field of irregular warfare. IWI generates written and audio content, coordinates events for the IW community, and hosts critical thinkers in the field of irregular warfare as IWI fellows. You can follow and engage with us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, YouTube, or LinkedIn.

Subscribe to our monthly newsletter for access to our written content, upcoming community events, and other resources.

All views expressed in this episode are the personal views of the participants and do not represent those of any government agency or of the Empirical Studies of Conflict Project.

Intro music: “Unsilenced” by Ketsa

Outro music: “Launch” by Ketsa

Episode 142 of the Irregular Warfare Podcast features Dr. Jonathan Schroden, Mick Crnkovich, and Dave Maxwell for a deep dive into the Pentagon’s new irregular warfare policy instruction—DoD Instruction 3000.07—and what it signals about how the U.S. military understands, organizes for, and competes in irregular conflict.

The discussion opens with why the Department of Defense updated its irregular warfare guidance after two decades of counterterrorism operations and amid renewed strategic competition with state adversaries. The guests explain how the new instruction reflects a shift away from a terrorism-centric framework toward recognizing irregular warfare as a persistent and central feature of great power competition.

The panel then turns to the most contested element of the policy: the definition of irregular warfare itself. Jon, Mick, and Dave debate whether IW should be understood as a method of warfare, a theory of victory, or a distinct form of competition—arguing that while the definition matters, the real test will be whether the joint force changes how it plans, trains, and operates.

The episode closes with a hard look at whether DoDI 3000.07 will translate into meaningful institutional change. The guests assess persistent obstacles to operationalizing IW—including force design, resourcing, and planning culture—and emphasize that success will depend on leadership more than policy language. Influence, not firepower, they argue, will be the most decisive component of competition in today’s security environment.

Episode 141 examines what the role of resistance operations are in the context of the broader war in Ukraine. Our guests begin by discussing whether resistance in occupied Ukraine has been effective. They argue that “Random Acts of Resistance” are not effective. Instead, resistance activities are most impactful when well synchronized with conventional military operations. The effective use of resistance activities faces multiple challenges though, the largest being the need to synchronize not only SOF and conventional forces on the battlefield, but also to control resistance entities that are often built from the grassroots civilian population. Our guests conclude that resistance operations are important, but they play a supporting role in a broader war.

LTG Andy Rohling has held multiple senior military roles in Europe, to include during the current war in Ukraine. Most relevantly he served as the Deputy Chair of the NATO Military Committee and Deputy Commanding General of United States Army Europe.

Jon Armstrong is a British Army Officer and author of the article “Violent Resistance in Occupied Ukraine: An Assessment of Network Capabilities, Access, and Utility“ which this conversation is based on. He has multiple operational deployments and is a 2025 Non-Resident Fellow at the Irregular Warfare Initiative.

Kyle Atwell and Dr. Olga Chiriac are the hosts for episode 141. Please reach out to them with any questions about the episode, the Irregular Warfare Podcast, or the IWI in Europe Program which Olga leads.

Intro music: “Unsilenced” by Ketsa

Outro music: “Launch” by Ketsa

Episode 140 is a bonus episode built out of conversations held with panelists from the 2025 Irregular Warfare Initiative and Special Operations Association of America South America in Competition Conference.

The South America in Competition Conference brought together over 250 researchers, practitioners, and members of industry for two days at the Carahsoft Headquarters in the DC area. The first day included panel discussions on irregular warfare challenges in the South America region. The second day included a detailed wargame with participation from a range of stakeholders, planned by the IWI Wargaming Division.

For this bonus episode, IWI Podcast Host Jackie Giunta recorded three short conversations with conference participants following their panel presentations.

First, IWI podcast host Jackie Giunta is joined by Dr. John Stockton, co-founder of Quantifind, Dave Cook from the Special Operations Association of America, and Dr. Ryan Berg from the Americas Program at the Center for Strategic and International Studies to discuss using open source intelligence to track illicit financial networks. Next, Catherine Woods from the Institute for Financial Integrity discusses illicit financial flows and tools of economic statecraft to counter them. Last, Phil Fuster, a Vice President at SpyCloud, further discusses the importance of OSINT and the need to refocus on relationships in South America.

Introducing and closing the episode are Doug Livermore, the IWI Director of Engagements, and Umar Ahmed Badami, Director of the IWI Wargaming Division. They also both planned this major event. Kyle Atwell provided editorial support for this episode.

If you have an idea for a future event or war-game IWI should run, want to get involved in events, or want to provide material support so IWI can continue these important conversations - reach out to Doug or Umar directly.

All views expressed in this episode are the personal views of the participants and do not represent those of any government agency or of the Empirical Studies of Conflict Project.

Intro music: “Unsilenced” by Ketsa Outro music: “Launch” by Ketsa

Episode 139 examines how supply chains have become instruments of strategic competition and the implications for U.S. defense capabilities. Our guests discuss how China gained control over critical drone components originally invented in the United States and what this means for economic security and irregular warfare.

Our guests begin by analyzing the "anatomy of a drone" to reveal how China leveraged consumer electronics manufacturing to dominate military supply chains. They then examine the "missing middle" in capital formation between venture funding and manufacturing scale, and how this gap undermines America's ability to compete in protracted economic campaigns. Finally, our guests discuss DIU's initiatives like Blue Manufacturing and Forge to rebuild domestic production capacity, the challenge of creating trusted supplier networks with allies, and how economic infrastructure has become both an offensive and defensive tool in modern warfare.

Dr. Fiona Murray is the William Porter Professor of Entrepreneurship and Associate Dean of Innovation at MIT Sloan School of Management. She chairs the NATO Innovation Fund, a €1 billion venture capital fund investing across 24 NATO allies. Her recent research examines drone supply chain vulnerabilities and the geography of innovation. She previously served on the UK Prime Minister's Council of Science and Technology and holds a PhD from Harvard.

Dr. John Griffin leads the Autonomy Portfolio and Boston office at the Defense Innovation Unit (DIU). A retired Marine Corps Lieutenant Colonel with 28 years of service. He previously taught at the U.S. Naval War College and led regional engagement for the National Security Innovation Network. He holds a doctorate from Northeastern University and a master's from Harvard.

All views expressed in this episode are the personal views of the participants and do not represent those of any government agency or of the Empirical Studies of Conflict Project.

Intro music: “Unsilenced” by Ketsa

Outro music: “Launch” by Ketsa

Episode 138 is a bonus episode built out of conversations held with panelists from the 2025 Irregular Warfare Initiative and Special Operations Association of America South America in Competition Conference.

The South America in Competition Conference brought together over 250 researchers, practitioners, and members of industry for two days at the Carahsoft Headquarters in the DC area. The first day included panel discussions on irregular warfare challenges in the South America region. The second day included a detailed wargame with participation from a range of stakeholders, planned by the IWI Wargaming Division.

For this bonus episode, IWI Podcast Host Jackie Giunta recorded four short conversations with conference participants following their panel presentations.

First, Will Walker from Onebrief examines whether PRC strategy in South America is coercive or benign. Next, Adam Fife, the CEO of CenCore, discusses Chinese debt trap diplomacy. Third, Leland Lazarus discusses how China’s economic statecraft is another form of irregular warfare. Last, Dr. Evan Ellis, Professor of Latin American Studies at the U.S. Army War College, provides a broad overview of China’s strategy in South America.

Introducing and closing the episode are Doug Livermore, the IWI Director of Engagements, and Umar Ahmed Badami, Director of the IWI Wargaming Division. They also both planned this major event. Kyle Atwell provided editorial support for this episode.

If you have an idea for a future event or wargame IWI should run, want to get involved in events, or want to provide material support so IWI can continue these important conversations - reach out to Doug or Umar directly.

Subscribe to our monthly newsletter for access to our written content, upcoming community events, and other resources.

All views expressed in this episode are the personal views of the participants and do not represent those of any government agency or of the Empirical Studies of Conflict Project.

Intro music: “Unsilenced” by Ketsa

Outro music: “Launch” by Ketsa

Episode 137 of the Irregular Warfare Podcast continues our four-part series on the future of war, pairing renowned author and futurist August Cole with senior special operations leaders to explore how tomorrow’s conflicts may unfold.

Our conversation centers on Cole’s short story On Their Own, which imagines U.S. Army Special Operations Forces advising a newly formed Thai commando unit amid Chinese-backed proxies, pervasive surveillance, organized crime, and accelerating technological change. The story spotlights how SOF teams may have to influence from the sidelines—helping partners integrate robotics, AI, and cyber tools—while competing for the strategic narrative in a contested Indo-Pacific environment.

Joining us for this episode is Major General Jeff VanAntwerp, Commander of Special Operations Command–Pacific (SOCPAC). Together with August Cole, MG VanAntwerp discusses how Army SOF is adapting to new technologies, why trust with partners remains a timeless necessity, and what qualities will continue to define special operators in the years ahead. The discussion underscores that while future operators will be hyper-enabled with sensors, drones, and advanced AI, the human dimension of warfare—trust, adaptability, and leadership—remains constant.

At the conclusion of the episode, listeners can hear a narrated excerpt from On Their Own, immersing them in the dilemmas SOF may face in the conflicts of the 2030s.

Episode 136 of the Irregular Warfare Podcast examines the fate of victorious rebel groups after civil wars—and why some remain loyal to post-war governments while others fragment, defect, or even overthrow the regimes they helped create.

Our guests begin by exploring the core puzzle: conventional wisdom suggests that decisive victory produces stability, yet evidence shows that in more than half of cases, post-war militaries face crises within a decade. They then explain how wartime pressures shape the organizational choices of rebel groups—particularly the relationship between political leaders and field commanders—and how those choices carry forward into peacetime governance. Drawing on cases from Zimbabwe, Côte d’Ivoire, and across Africa, the discussion highlights why power-sharing arrangements often fail, why commitment problems undermine loyalty, and how the interests of commanders, rulers, and foreign partners diverge. Finally, the conversation turns to the limits of external security assistance, and what policymakers and practitioners should consider when working with post-conflict militaries.

Dr. Philip A. Martin is an assistant professor at George Mason University. His research specializes in political violence and civil wars, peacebuilding, and African politics. His article, Insurgent Armies: Military Obedience and State Formation after Rebel Victory, serves as the anchor for today’s conversation.

Brigadier General Allen J. Pepper is the commanding general of U.S. Army Security Assistance Command. A career foreign area officer with extensive experience across Africa, he has served in Mali, the Democratic Republic of Congo, and the Central African Republic.