Public–private partnerships (P3s) have long been used as a tool for delivering complex infrastructure projects in Canada, but the landscape is changing. In this episode, Riccardo and his panel of experts explore how P3s have evolved and what that means for today’s projects, funding models, and risk-sharing dynamics.

In this two-part series, Emily Moore (University of Toronto), Pouya Zangeneh (University of Calgary), and Rob Pattison (Rob Pattison Consulting) bring industry, academic, and legal perspectives to the conversation. Together, they unpack how shifting risk appetites, funding structures, and partner roles are reshaping both the potential and the challenges of using P3s.

From the financial nuances of availability versus revenue deals to the often-overlooked behavioural impacts of changing equity stakes, this discussion offers timely insights for anyone curious about what makes these partnerships succeed or fail.

Key Takeaways

• How project decisions, such as the approach to liquidated damages, change based on whether a project is privately or publicly funded.
• The various dynamics and incentives in revenue deals and availability deals.
• How equity plays into the outcomes of P3 projects, both beneficially and detrimentally.
• How misaligned motivations, externally or internally, can complicate or even derail a project.
• The history and practice of honourariums and bid fees during project bidding.

Quote

“Any ​contractor ​that ​they're ​going ​to ​hire ​is completely ​independent. ​They're ​a ​third ​party. ​And ​so ​if ​to ​protect ​your ​equity ​as ​the ​owner ​and ​if ​to ​protect ​the ​business, ​you've ​got ​to ​bankrupt ​your ​contractor, ​well, ​you ​know, ​you ​won't ​have ​qualms ​about ​that. ​I ​mean, ​other ​than ​as ​a ​sort ​of ​human ​being ​walking ​around ​on ​this ​planet. ​But ​from ​a ​financial ​perspective, ​you ​won't ​have ​any ​qualms ​about ​that ​because ​your ​only ​relationship ​is ​that ​contract ​and ​you've ​got ​securities ​and ​you've ​got ​this ​and ​that ​and ​you've ​got ​the ​other ​thing. ​And ​the ​interesting ​thing ​in ​a ​P3 ​is ​if ​everybody ​in ​that ​family ​has ​their ​own ​P ​and ​L ​and ​if ​they ​take ​it ​to ​the ​logical ​extension, ​and ​Ricardo, ​you'll ​correct ​me, ​but ​if ​you're ​a ​public ​company, every ​officer ​of ​that ​company ​who's ​got ​a ​P ​and ​L ​has ​a ​fiduciary ​duty ​to ​deliver ​for ​the ​public ​company. ​And ​well, ​my ​responsibility ​is ​my ​P ​and ​L. ​And ​if ​protecting ​my ​P ​and ​L ​means ​bankrupting ​another ​division, ​actually ​that's ​what ​I ​got ​to ​do ​unless ​the ​board ​wants ​to ​overrule ​me.” - Rob Pattison

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Welcome to Uncharted Conversations, a new Navigating Major Programmes series designed to disrupt industry thinking one unscripted conversation at a time. In each episode, the panelists bring their diverse perspectives to the table as self-dubbed industry pirates, adopting a mercenary approach to calling out industry challenges. Up first: collaborative contracts.

David Ho is the National Leader of Healthcare and Buildings for Accenture. Melissa Di Marco is a Partner and specialist in Project Advisory and Disputes at Accuracy. Shormila Chatterjee is the Vice President of EY. Together, these experienced programme professionals discuss the complexities of collaborative contracting in the infrastructure sector, including often-seen core competency shortcomings and the importance of empowering the right decision makers.

Too often, collaboration is misconstrued as the project goal when it is, in fact, merely one possible vehicle. This conversation delves into market participation, trust issues and risk allocation, and why technical skill shouldn’t top the recruitment checklist. Decision-making, competency, and governance are painstakingly dissected in this no-holds-barred discussion that highlights the problems not with collaborative contracts themselves but with the assumption that choosing this model will fix all the problems. Join these leaders as they explore why the infrastructure industry might be ready for a seismic systemic shift.

Takeaways:

• Why every organization’s first question should be whether they have the skills to manage a collaborative contract.
• The dangers of assuming a collaborative contract will automatically be easier and mitigate risk.
• The need for a strong collection of capable people around the table for any programme model to succeed.
• How systems and governance can be structured with empowerment in mind.
• The soft skills that are essential, and more important than technical experience, for true collaboration.

Quote:

“The idea ​will ​be ​to enter ​into ​a ​process ​with ​a ​winning ​counterparty. ​We ​can ​call ​them ​whatever ​we ​want, ​development ​partner, ​whatever ​it ​might ​be. But ​that ​period ​of ​dialogue ​and ​iteration,​ ​if ​it ​is ​prescribed ​by ​an ​even ​more ​detailed ​rulebook, in ​my ​mind, ​it ​doesn't ​matter ​if ​the ​end ​of ​that ​rulebook ​still ​doesn't ​have ​a ​fixed ​price. ​All ​you're ​doing ​is ​layering ​on ​a ​set ​of ​rules ​that ​is ​now ​a ​wholly ​dependent ​upon ​the ​behavioural ​interpretations ​of ​the ​people ​playing ​the ​game. ​And ​if ​the ​behavioural ​interpretation ​is, ​I'm ​going ​to ​use ​the ​rules ​to ​my ​advantage ​to ​exploit ​your ​bad ​writing ​of ​the ​rules, ​or ​I'm ​going ​to ​use ​the ​rules ​to ​my ​advantage ​to ​compel ​you ​to ​obey ​no ​matter ​what. ​Then ​forget ​it. ​It's ​not ​collaborative. ​It ​is ​just ​a ​more ​involved ​rule ​book ​​for ​less ​certainty ​of ​outcome.” - David Ho

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How is urban art developed in cooperation with planners, developers, and architects? Public art is designed to be viewed and enjoyed from many angles. Riccardo embraces this 360-degree perspective in this episode by examining a component of major programmes that is not often explored: the development of the impressive art installations on display in many public buildings. He speaks with Corail Bourrelier Fabiani, a former host of the podcast and the passionate programme manager behind London’s Shard and Paddington Square sculptures.

Corail outlines the intricate relationship between public art and major urban developments in the city, from why it’s so important to inspire ongoing wonder in our concrete jungles to the challenges of getting involved late in the development process. Her experiences highlight the importance of stakeholder collaboration and the many moving parts that must be navigated to create something beautiful, lasting, and welcoming for tourists and residents alike—something that helps define the fabric of the city around us.

Takeaways:

• The humanizing impact of interacting with public art.
• The complex process of stakeholder management and artistic team selection.
• The benefits of enthusiastic architect and engineer buy-in on an art installation.
• The technical, structural, and visual challenges inherent in making public art decisions at the end of development.

Quote: “There ​are ​a ​lot ​of ​sculptures ​around ​us ​that ​we, ​after ​a ​while, ​we ​don't ​even ​see. ​And ​I ​would ​say, ​like, ​it's ​true. ​It's ​true ​with ​a ​lot ​of ​the ​urban ​fabric ​that ​when ​you ​get ​used ​to ​something, ​you ​just ​stop ​like ​looking ​at ​it. ​If ​you ​take ​the ​tube ​in ​Paris, ​for ​example, ​like ​the ​very ​old ​entrances ​to ​the ​tube ​with ​like ​the ​lights ​and ​the ​way ​they're ​shaped, ​etc. ​This ​kind ​of ​Art ​Deco, ​like, ​beautiful ​entrance. ​Most ​people ​don't ​even see ​them ​anymore, ​you ​know. ​Or ​if ​you ​walk ​along ​alongside ​the ​Thames ​and ​you ​go closer ​to ​the ​Tate, ​you ​would ​see ​these ​lampposts ​that ​have ​big ​fish ​at ​the ​bottom ​of ​them ​that ​are, ​you ​know, ​around ​the ​lamppost. ​And ​a ​lot ​of ​people, ​because ​we're ​so. ​There ​are ​so ​many ​images, ​etc, ​or ​we're ​too ​much ​into ​our ​own ​world, ​like ​thinking ​about ​our ​issues, ​our, ​like ​our ​next ​meeting, ​et ​cetera, ​we ​just ​walk ​past ​them ​without ​even ​noticing ​what's ​around ​us. ​And ​I ​think ​art, ​​the ​magic ​of ​art ​is ​that ​sometimes ​it ​grabs ​your ​attention, ​you ​don't ​know ​why, ​and ​it ​makes ​you ​stop ​for ​a ​second ​and ​realize ​that ​your ​surroundings, ​or ​be ​completely ​amazed ​that ​you ​notice ​that ​element.” - Corail Bourrelier Fabiani

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What does the future of construction technology hold for industry and investors? Through more than a decade of work in construction tech and AEC-focused venture capital, Alice Leung has seen much of the technology being developed for construction in recent years, as well as the challenges forward-thinking tech startups face as they pursue adoption and implementation of their software within this hard-to-crack industry.

Navigating Major Programmes delves into the past, present, and future of construction technology as Riccardo speaks with Alice about the sector’s opportunities and limitations. They discuss the importance of sector expertise in venture capital, the evolution of AEC technology, and the impact of delivery models on technology adoption. Their conversation explores the significance of collaboration and the impact technology can have on this approach, as well as incentive alignment and the potential of robotics in addressing labour shortages. Alice’s take on cultural shifts that could lead to tech adoption and improve the safety and efficiency of building projects is both realistic and optimistic, emphasizing the rewarding nature of building long-lasting infrastructure.

Takeaways:

• The productivity and efficiency challenges inherent in traditional construction projects.
• The history of AEC investment and how venture capitalists and experienced industry professionals can work together.
• The importance of pursuing innovation in construction technology.
• How incentive alignment could help drive collaboration in construction.
• Why robotics might be the answer to some of the industry’s biggest challenges.

Quote:

“I ​think, ​you ​know, ​when ​you, there's ​a ​lot ​of, ​kind ​of ​different ​angles ​and ​different problems ​where ​you ​can ​really ​see ​this, right? ​One ​of ​​my ​favourite ​examples ​is ​obviously ​around ​BIM ​and VEC, ​right? ​Like, ​BIM ​has ​been ​around ​for ​a ​long ​time. ​Why ​hasn't ​it ​truly ​been ​adopted, right? ​And ​in ​theory you ​should ​have ​this ​federated ​model ​that ​everyone ​can ​leverage, right? ​That's ​the ​goal, ​right? ​Is ​like, ​you ​have ​this ​one ​single ​source ​of ​truth ​with ​everything ​that ​you ​need ​obviously ​to ​different ​complexities ​across ​the ​supply ​chain. ​But ​let's ​just ​pretend ​that ​we're ​in ​this ​perfect ​world ​right ​now ​where ​we ​have ​that ​fully ​coordinated ​model, ​everything ​makes ​sense. ​If ​we ​build ​off ​of ​it, ​we ​won't ​have ​any ​rework. ​We ​shouldn't ​have ​that ​many ​issues ​in ​the ​field. ​But ​if ​you ​think ​about ​just ​pure, ​if ​this ​was ​fixed ​price, ​contract, design, ​bid ​build ​with ​BIM, why ​does ​that ​fail? ​Because everyone ​needs ​a ​different ​level ​of ​detail. ​Everyone ​wants ​to ​maybe ​add ​or ​use ​different ​data ​in ​those ​models and ​to ​get ​to ​a ​model ​that ​is accurate ​enough ​for ​construction, ​you're ​really ​asking ​the ​design ​teams ​to ​put ​in ​so ​much ​more ​effort ​than ​really ​what ​they ​normally ​do. I ​think ​this ​is ​all ​about ​incentive ​alignment. ​And ​with ​the ​traditional ​contracting ​methods ​it's ​like, ​oh, ​why ​would ​I ​add ​more ​detail ​in ​my ​goodwill ​to ​help ​this ​other ​company ​who ​may ​​mess ​me ​up ​in ​the ​future, ​right?” - Alice Leung

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How does a master insurance executive balance globe-trotting, raising a family, and pursuing meaningful projects? In this episode of the Master Builder series, Shormila explores the realities of professional and personal life in the C-suite with Sarah Roberts, the president of INTECH Risk Management.

Sarah delves into the history of insurance, both her own and how this vital component of infrastructure projects first came to be. In an industry that is evolving due to increased global and climate change demands, clear communication, public-private partnerships, and professional liability insurance as a whole have never been more important—but they’re only part of the story. Sarah’s intricate balance of career and family life is relatable or aspirational to so many. It highlights a dedication to both her chosen industry and personal passions, from overseeing risk management projects around the world to the challenges and rewards of being a working mother in two countries.

Key Takeaways:

• The importance of professional liability insurance in infrastructure.
• The significance of breaking down “insurance speak” in client relationships.
• The intriguing history of insurance and the rise of women in the industry.
• The rewarding challenges of balancing family and career across continents.
• The positive impact of diverse perspectives on infrastructure projects.

“I ​think ​probably ​that ​sort ​of ​​light ​bulb ​moment ​for ​me ​was, ​probably ​sitting ​in ​a ​meeting ​one ​day, ​and ​you ​had ​the ​insurance ​brokers ​and ​you ​had ​claims ​adjusters ​and ​they ​were ​all ​talking ​insurance ​speak ​to ​one ​of ​our ​clients. ​And ​you ​could ​just ​see ​them ​all ​sitting ​there, ​five ​of ​them ​with ​their ​eyes ​completely ​glazed ​over, ​having ​no ​idea ​what ​was ​going ​on. And ​I ​sort ​of ​stepped ​in ​and ​I ​said ​we ​need ​to ​speak ​English ​to ​people, right? ​And ​you ​know, ​it's ​great ​to ​throw ​around ​all ​the ​terminology ​and ​I ​am ​the ​biggest ​insurance ​geek. ​So ​you ​get ​me ​on ​the ​phone ​with ​insurance ​people ​​and ​that's ​what ​we ​will ​speak, ​acronyms ​just ​like ​engineers ​will, right? We ​will, ​we ​will ​speak ​all ​of ​that ​sort ​of ​insurance ​ease ​that's ​there. ​But ​when ​you're ​talking ​to ​a ​layperson, ​it ​doesn't ​mean ​anything ​to them.” - Sarah Roberts

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What does it mean to build infrastructure that goes beyond causing or just avoiding friction with the policy side of the table? In this episode, David Ho—former lawyer, infrastructure strategist, and seasoned capital program and project manager—joins Riccardo to discuss how major projects are shaped not only by procurement models but by the complex, nuanced world of policy-making.

David has experience in helping stakeholders understand the limits of doing everything at once and the possibilities that emerge when we confront different questions. From collaborative contracting models to data governance in healthcare infrastructure, he challenges them to think beyond technical fixes and ask, What’s the real problem we’re solving for? The relationship between infrastructure professionals and policymakers should involve informing policy, not just executing it.

David and Riccardo explore why infrastructure can struggle to keep pace with need and the role risk aversion plays in enacting change.

”It's ​like ​we ​didn't ​examine ​what ​were ​the ​original ​root ​cause ​problems ​that ​were ​driving ​us ​to ​what ​we've ​been ​feeling ​and ​seeing ​in ​the ​last ​few ​years. ​And ​by ​that ​I ​mean ​what ​are ​both ​the ​political ​and ​market ​dynamics ​that ​are ​bigger ​than ​just ​us, ​uh, ​in ​the ​infrastructure ​space? ​I'll ​speak ​for ​what ​I ​see ​in ​Ontario, ​in ​Canada, ​because ​I ​obviously ​know ​that ​best. ​But ​I, ​I ​have ​a ​suspicion ​this ​is ​very, ​very ​similar ​in ​other ​places ​around ​the ​world. ​If ​you ​ask ​people, ​you ​know, ​why ​are ​we ​going ​into ​a ​collaborative ​model, ​by ​the ​way? ​You ​know, ​whatever ​your ​working ​definition ​of ​collaborative ​or ​progressive ​actually ​means, ​I ​think ​you ​would ​get ​a ​lot ​of ​different ​answers ​of ​what ​people ​are ​trying ​to ​solve ​for. ​And ​none ​of ​them ​are ​necessarily ​wrong. ​But ​if ​you ​add ​them ​together,​sometimes ​we ​try ​and ​be ​too ​intellectually ​precise. ​We ​talk ​about ​risk, ​actually ​we ​talk ​about ​risk ​a ​lot, ​but ​we ​don't ​talk ​about ​market ​forces ​and ​dynamics ​and ​we ​don't ​talk ​about ​political ​pressures other ​than ​to ​just ​be ​really ​negative ​about ​them, ​but ​they're ​actually ​real.” - David Ho

Key Takeaways:

• Why building relationships isn't just practicing government relations.
• What can happen when we turn our minds to “what’s possible” instead of “why it’s not possible”.
• The impact of change management and agility on procurement and execution.
• What the voice of disruption looks like to create big changes in infrastructure.
• How health data privacy laws tie in to infrastructure.

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In engineering today, more and more people are choosing the generalist route, often pivoting off that solid, multi-faceted educational foundation into different fields. But what happens when you take the opposite route, honing in to pursue an aspect of your work that truly drives your passion?

In today’s episode of Navigating Major Programmes, hosts Riccardo Cosentino and Shormila Chatterjee speak with a Master Builder who did just that. After spending her early years on industrial projects, Wendy Itagawa returned to school for a Master’s in structural engineering, focusing on bridge design. Today, she serves as the Executive Director of Vancouver’s Pattullo Bridge Replacement Project, of which she’s been an integral part for more than seven years. She shares how working with and leading teams through the whole lifecycle of projects impacts how she views the work she has completed on some of the country’s most high-profile transportation initiatives.

”I ​really ​believe ​that ​even ​if ​it's ​a ​design ​build ​contract, ​it ​doesn't ​necessarily ​mean ​you ​don't ​have ​to ​be ​in ​one ​of ​these ​progressive ​collaborative ​models. ​So ​really ​comes ​down ​to ​the ​relationship ​and ​helping, ​helping ​each ​other. ​And ​I ​think ​sometimes ​what ​I've ​seen ​is, ​you ​know, ​owners ​or ​on ​their ​team ​that ​too ​almost ​afraid ​of ​helping ​too ​much ​or ​because ​you're ​afraid ​of ​getting ​claims ​or ​creating ​too ​many ​changes. ​But ​I ​think ​it ​actually ​prevents ​that ​and ​you ​know, ​claims ​are ​going ​to ​happen ​either ​way. ​So, ​but ​you ​can ​mitigate ​impacts ​a ​lot ​more ​if ​you ​do ​work ​collaboratively ​because ​you ​can ​sometimes ​reduce ​the ​time ​and, ​and ​costs ​if ​you ​work ​together ​on ​it. ​So ​yeah, ​I ​think ​sometimes ​being ​like ​that ​hands ​off ​owner ​approach ​is ​not, ​is ​not ​helpful.” — Wendy Itagawa

Key Takeaways:

• The benefits of focusing on a more technical specialization rather than generalizing
• Why working on a project for the long term impacts team performance and outcomes
• How to foster a collaborative approach even in traditional design-build contracts
• A master builder’s uniquely positive perspective on working in male-dominated environments.

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How can teams take the concept of collaboration beyond lip service and virtue signalling to create stronger, more successful projects?

We know that collaboration is the cornerstone of alliance contracting models, but countless research shows us that when it comes to behavioural cohesion, teamwork, and empathy, the type of contract is immaterial—collaborative teams across industries and contract type perform better, see greater successes, and save more money than teams built on competition and infighting.

Emily Mahoney and Sarah Laurence, the founders of Mahoney & Matthews Consulting, work with high-performance teams, not only preparing them for the behavioural assessment that will win the project but also instilling the tenets of collaboration to carry all the way through to a successful culmination. Creating a true team takes more than a couple of nights out at the pub. It calls for hard, intentional conversations, deep honesty, and being human.

“So ​if ​you ​think ​about ​it, ​all ​leadership ​really ​is, ​is ​a ​set ​of ​behaviours ​that ​are ​used ​in ​a ​certain ​way. ​And ​it's ​not ​exactly ​the ​same ​behaviours ​as ​collaboration. ​They ​can ​obviously, ​they ​obviously ​overlap ​a ​lot. ​But ​collaboration ​as ​well ​is ​a ​set ​of ​behaviours ​that ​are ​used ​in ​certain ​ways. ​So ​in ​terms ​of organizational ​development ​​org ​psych ​behaviours, ​there ​is ​a ​canon ​of ​research ​and ​of ​literature ​and ​there ​are ​people ​who ​spend ​a ​lot ​of ​time ​and ​money ​not ​only ​researching ​these ​things, ​but ​also ​making ​them ​accessible ​to ​people ​through ​books, ​podcasts, ​TED ​talks, ​etc.” - Emily Mahoney

Key Takeaways:

• Why owners and contractors must leave behind competitive preconceptions of the “other side” and find the common ground
• The benefit of introducing and continuing real teamwork regardless of the contract model
• How social learning can facilitate high-performing teams, taking them beyond buzzwords to true and lasting collaboration
• How the collaborative approach changes what we should expect from leadership
• What sports teams have to teach us about the importance of continuous and supportive coaching to success.

Links Mentioned:

• Project Oxygen – The 10 Qualities You Need to Be a Great Leader: https://institutesuccess.com/2019/07/project-oxygen-the-10-qualities-you-need-to-be-a-great-leader/
• University of Warwick research: https://wrap.warwick.ac.uk/id/eprint/60724/1/WRAP_liu_joy_griffiths_ciawes_08.pdf

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